New book examines how autocracies are getting stronger and trying to end democracy

The historic prisoner release from Russia was thanks to the diplomatic work of a group of democracies to free over a dozen people from the autocratic regime of Vladimir Putin. Anne Applebaum’s new book, “Autocracy, Inc.,” examines how autocracies are gaining power, and what they’re doing with that power. William Brangham sat down with Applebaum to discuss more.
Geoff Bennett:
Today’s historic prisoner release from Russia was thanks to the diplomatic work of a group of democracies, freeing over a dozen people from the autocratic regime of Vladimir Putin.
But, as William Brangham reports, a new book examines how autocracies are gaining power and what they’re doing with that power.
William Brangham:
In her new book, Pulitzer Prize winner Anne Applebaum punctures the commonly held image of an isolated autocrat. Instead, she documents the often interconnected ways these strongmen rise to power, how they bolster each other, and then work in tandem to undermine democracy.
The book is called “Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World.”
And Anne Applebaum joins us now.
Welcome back to the “News Hour.”
Anne Applebaum, Author, “Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World”: Thank you.
William Brangham:
Can we start with a definition? Because people throw out socialist, fascist, communist, often without knowing what those terms really mean.
What is an autocrat, and who are the autocrats out there that we would know?
Anne Applebaum:
An autocrat is someone who seeks to rule with no checks and balances, with no checks on his authority, with no judges, no media, no intermediary figures or institutions, who wants to control everything that happens in the state and to make all of the decisions.
And I — the autocrats who I’m most interested in are the ones who not only want to have that system at home, but who are interested in protecting people who want to create those systems abroad. So, the book is mostly about Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and a host of others, Zimbabwe, Azerbaijan. There’s a list of them.
And, increasingly, they operate as a network. They seek to protect each other and also to disrupt the democratic world. And that’s because the language of the democratic world, meaning rights, laws, rule of law, justice…
William Brangham:
Accountability.
Anne Applebaum:
… accountability, transparency, those things are harmful to them. And, of course, that’s the language of their own internal oppositions.
And so they need to undermine the people who use it and, if they can, discredit it. And that’s part of what we’re seeing happen now around the world.
William Brangham:
One of the stereotypes that you try to puncture here is this idea that they really don’t have shared interests, that they work individually to oppress and terrorize their own citizens, but don’t really care so much about what happens elsewhere.
What is it that they do see as the value in helping — what does Xi see in helping Putin, or Putin in North Korea, for instance?
Anne Applebaum:
Well, some of it is pragmatic. So Putin gets ammunition from North Korea, and he gets drones from Iran, and he gets components for his defense industry from Xi.
And some of it is a little bit more than that. So Xi may have an interest in not seeing Putin fail, because, if Putin fails, that speaks badly of autocratic systems. It speaks badly of the kinds of leaders who rule with absolute power. And it might have a negative impact on him.
They worry a great deal about the autocratic club and the fate of its members.
William Brangham:
Your book is dedicated to the optimists out there.
And I wonder, when you look at how the West and NATO stood up to Putin’s aggression in Ukraine, does that give you a sense of optimism that the forces of democracy can be martialed against autocracy?
Anne Applebaum:
It really did. I mean, it was a moment nobody was really sure what would happen when Russia invaded Ukraine in full-scale invasion in 2022, and the degree to which not just the old West, Europe and America, not just NATO, but the entire democratic world rallied.
There’s something like 50 countries who’ve participated in the defense of Ukraine or the aid of Ukraine. The flip side is that I don’t think we fully understood at the beginning of the war the degree to which there was going to be an autocratic network that was going to support Putin.
William Brangham:
Supporting him…
Anne Applebaum:
Yes.
William Brangham:
… with arms and money and all of those things.
Anne Applebaum:
Arms and money and support of other kinds.
And we need to now begin thinking about how to counter that. And people are beginning to think about it, but a little — like everything, a little late.
William Brangham:
This is not a book about Donald Trump. I mean, he gets a few passing mentions and a good chunk of the last page of your book.
But you do write that, if he were reelected and uses the tools of executive power against his perceived enemies, that it would — quote — then it would be: “The blending of the autocratic and democratic worlds will be complete.”
Do you think that Donald Trump wants to be an autocrat?
Anne Applebaum:
He certainly says so. I mean, sometimes, he says so in a kind of jokey way: I will be dictator for one day.
Sometimes, he says so in the language he uses about — whether it’s about President Xi, who he admires, or President Putin, who he admires, or even the dictator of North Korea, who’s driven his country into poverty and isolation, who he also admires.
So he’s telling us what kinds of people are around — and he rarely — he has very few kind words for American allies or for fellow democracies. It’s really the absolute — people with absolute power that he wants to be like.
And you can also hear in the language he uses, whether it’s about judges, or whether it’s about the media, or whether it’s about American institutions of other kind, about the electoral system, that he has great disdain for the institutions of democracy and the rules that were set up to make sure that power is checked in our country and that the executive isn’t a king.
And those are disturbing traits. And they would be — they would be disturbing at any time in history, but they’re particularly disturbing now, when we have the rise of so many leaders with absolute power around the world who would love to have a transactional American president to do deals with.
William Brangham:
People who live in democracies love to think that, when pressed, that the system will be robust and stand up to this. I mean, that was what many people thought of — happened during the first Trump administration, that the system held.
Do you think that that’s naive?
Anne Applebaum:
It can be naive.
I mean, there is a pattern. You can see it with Viktor Orban for example, of people who lose elections, people like Donald Trump who believe they are owed power, they deserve power, who lose elections and who come back in a second term and say, right, this time, I’m not going to make that mistake again, and who then change their electoral system, or, in Orban’s case, change the constitution, change the judicial system, in order to make sure that they never lose.
The attention that’s paid, for example, to Project 2025, which is a project of The Heritage Foundation, which describes exactly how you would do that and which sounds remarkably like what’s happened in other countries, including, by the way, in Venezuela — that was how Hugo Chavez took over.
This isn’t necessarily a right-wing or a left-wing project. It’s just an antidemocratic project. And the fact that he will be surrounded by people like that is disturbing.
William Brangham:
The book is called “Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World.”
Anne Applebaum, great to see you. Thank you so much.
Anne Applebaum:
Thank you.